Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 04:30:01 PST
From: Advanced Amateur Radio Networking Group <tcp-group@ucsd.edu>
Errors-To: TCP-Group-Errors@UCSD.Edu
Reply-To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: TCP-Group Digest V93 #292
To: tcp-group-digest
TCP-Group Digest Wed, 10 Nov 93 Volume 93 : Issue 292
Today's Topics:
Emergency Service and Overload
looking for pa0gri
NOS FTP breaks 3B2 (8 msgs)
NOS FTP breask 3b2
re NOS ftp broke
WinQVT/Net ( was Campus Net )
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We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text
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policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 08:31:28 -0400 (AST)
From: "VY2DCS, SEELER@UPEI.CA" <SEELER@upei.ca>
Subject: Emergency Service and Overload
To: TCP-Group@UCSD.EDU
>And just like the existing wire-based phone system, it'll break under load
>during an Emergency.
>The phone system doesn't (usually) break because it's physically damaged;
>the Phone Companies are very good at building failsafes. Instead, the phone
>system collapses under the load of every person trying to use their phone at
>the same time during an emergency.
>Iridium will suffer exactly the same load problems, and so will be useless
>or the same reasons.
I would support this statement given a recent experience here - not involving
an emergency. The Island ( Prince Edward Island ) not too long ago hosted
the Canada Winter Games. The organization decided to use cellular phones
for communications during the Games. They were assured that the system
could handle the load of traffic for this situation. Well, the system
for the most part became useless since it COULD NOT handle the traffic.
For two days, as a Sport Director in charge of a week long event, I could
not reach people with the system. What did I do - I got rid of the cellulars,
went to the organizational headquarters, picked up motorola handhelds and
asked for a landline number. There was so much traffic the system could not
handle it - so I suspect that in a disaster situation the system would fall
apart quickly.
Note we are on a small island where the services provided by commercial
groups may not be to the standards of major centers in the US - but
I would suspect the same would hold true there as well.
73
DE David, VY2DCS
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 22:05:16 MET
From: agostini@IR5tcp.iroe.fi.cnr.it (Alessandro Agostini (IK5HGN))
Subject: looking for pa0gri
To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu
Hello all, any of you knows the Email address of Van der Grinten (Gerard)
(In HAM Radio PA0GRI) ? Thanks, bye bye.
reply to agostini@ir5tcp.iroe.fi.cnr.it
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:12:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Sampson <ssampson@sabea-oc.af.mil>
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: lyndon@unbc.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
>
> The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent
> copy of the BSD FTP client software and port it. You might as well do
> telnet, rlogin, and the appropriate servers while you're at it ...
>
> --lyndon
>
>
I read the FTP RFC last night and you're right! The use of three digits
and a dash "-" means it's a multi-line, while a space " " means it's a
single line command. The only thing different about NOS is that it
loads up a 220- to start every line for the MOTD bo-jive, while the
spec seems to say that just pre-padding three-digit numbers is all you
need, but the 220- should work just fine.
I guess I get to play phone-tag with AT&T customer support voice-mail...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 8:36:45 EST
From: Steve Urich <steve@zero.com>
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: unbc.edu!lyndon@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
> The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent
Oh really? Then why did it work for all these years until jnos
with the 220- login ftp motd came around? All the sites with
ftp I ever used had the ftp motd after the password in the
230- field. Try using regular ka9q net with jnos via ftp
and you will see what I mean.
> copy of the BSD FTP client software and port it. You might as well do
> telnet, rlogin, and the appropriate servers while you're at it ...
The only difference there is the how the code was probably
written and is more adapt to buggy standards.
--
|Stephen Urich| Internet:steve@zero.com |He hitotsu wa kusuri|
|NIC: SU2 | UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve | sempuku ni makau. |
|ARS: WB3FTP | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM |ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:wb3ftp@wb3ftp.ampr.org[44.80.8.44]|TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 10:45:42 EST
From: crompton@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (D. Crompton)
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu, ssampson@sabea-oc.af.mil
This is a problem ( the multiple 220 code) that has also been pointed out to me
by a local unix user. If I remember ocorrectly the code should be 230 - this
would be instead of 220. I just checked my windows NT FTP login, in which I
have an openning banner, and it gives a single 230 before the banner and
a 230 before the login confirmation - I.E.
230-
lines
of
text
230- anonymous user logged in
Try crompton.nadc.navy.mil anonymous login and see if that works with your
system. I think NOS needs to be changed (at least jnos)
Doug
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 12:57:58 EST
From: Steve Urich <steve@zero.com>
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: sabea-oc.af.mil!ssampson@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Steve Sampson)
> I read the FTP RFC last night and you're right! The use of three digits
> and a dash "-" means it's a multi-line, while a space " " means it's a
> single line command. The only thing different about NOS is that it
> loads up a 220- to start every line for the MOTD bo-jive, while the
Thats right NOS is the only animal that does this. Try finding
any other ftp ware on the internet that uses 220- as an ftp motd
instead of 230-. 220 is always assigned to a login banner line.
> spec seems to say that just pre-padding three-digit numbers is all you
> need, but the 220- should work just fine.
But it doesn't and kills many ftp clients, thats why internet
sites don't seem to use it only NOS does. The ftp client in
NOS has been hacked to look for the - in the 220 in controlling
verbose mode normal. Try using the NOS ftp client on an internet
site using 230- as an ftp motd and you will find you won't see
the motd until after you send a ls or pwd command to open up
the verbose. At least thats what used to happen to me when I
was testing it with a 230- site.
--
|Stephen Urich| Internet:steve@zero.com |He hitotsu wa kusuri|
|NIC: SU2 | UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve | sempuku ni makau. |
|ARS: WB3FTP | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM |ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:wb3ftp@wb3ftp.ampr.org[44.80.8.44]|TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:33:01 -0800
From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor)
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
>> The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent
I have to agree. We here used several different versions of the
networking code that was available for the 3B2s and 3B15 we had, and
were unable to get it working satisfactorily. It had many bugs.
I recall it was difficult to even get someone to accept a bug report on
the networking problems we were having. As one AT&T insider (who shall
remain anonymous) explained it to me, the networking code was a
contracted project, not developed in-house. As a result, once it was
accepted by AT&T, the contractor wasn't under any obligation to work on
it without further payment, and that was a sticky wicket.
Many networking packages were derived from the freely-available
Berkeley NET code. Most of them share the same bugs because they share
the same heritage. One of these bugs was that the early Berkeley net
ftp code didn't accept multi-line greeting messages, even though they were
perfectly legal according to the RFCs. That bug was fixed later on,
but if the 3B2 networking code was derived from the early Berkeley net
code (and in my opinion, it sure looks like it was!), this bug could
quite possibly remain.
In one sense, it's a good idea to be conservative what you send in order
to avoid breaking existing software. Yet progress must be made; at some
point you have to make changes - and these changes might expose
previously-unknown-to-be-broken software.
- Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:02:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@unbc.edu>
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: Steve Urich <steve@zero.com>
> > The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent
> Oh really? Then why did it work for all these years until jnos
> with the 220- login ftp motd came around? All the sites with
> ftp I ever used had the ftp motd after the password in the
> 230- field. Try using regular ka9q net with jnos via ftp
> and you will see what I mean.
It "worked" for all those years because you didn't manage to provoke any
of the bugs in their networking software. That does not means it's not
broken. I hassled with this on 3B2's and 3B4000's. We got so frustrated
with AT&T tech support (or the lack thereof) that I diff'd all of our
fixes into a patch kit and send it down to "the pit" in NJ. They looked at
it, said "yup, it's broken," and filed the patches in the garbage. The
excuse was that the networking code was not written by them, so they were
not going to fix it. There were some pretty stoopid errors in there ...
> > copy of the BSD FTP client software and port it. You might as well do
> > telnet, rlogin, and the appropriate servers while you're at it ...
> The only difference there is the how the code was probably
> written and is more adapt to buggy standards.
Now I think you're reaching for straws :-)
--lyndon
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 13:18:09 EST
From: Steve Urich <steve@zero.com>
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: unbc.edu!lyndon@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
> It "worked" for all those years because you didn't manage to provoke any
> of the bugs in their networking software. That does not means it's not
Thats right because they could only write it to conform with what
was out there at the time. Thats why there are revisions as things
change in the game so does the rules. Blame it on at&t because
thats software is older then dirt.
> > The only difference there is the how the code was probably
> > written and is more adapt to buggy standards.
>
> Now I think you're reaching for straws :-)
True, but I base that on looking at the way people used to code
C and how they do it now. Its more like a modem script to connect
thru a login under UUCP, change the ending of one of the lines
and you break the code. Even a kid can figure that out. Look at
the way NOS handles that 220- line in the ftp client? Need I say
say more?
--
|Stephen Urich| Internet:steve@zero.com |He hitotsu wa kusuri|
|NIC: SU2 | UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve | sempuku ni makau. |
|ARS: WB3FTP | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM |ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:wb3ftp@wb3ftp.ampr.org[44.80.8.44]|TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:50:49 -0500
From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: NOS FTP breaks 3B2
To: crompton@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (D. Crompton)
> This is a problem ( the multiple 220 code) that has also been pointed out to me
> by a local unix user. If I remember ocorrectly the code should be 230 - this
> would be instead of 220. I just checked my windows NT FTP login, in which I
> have an openning banner, and it gives a single 230 before the banner and
> a 230 before the login confirmation - I.E.
*sigh.
GO READ THE RFCs. Using *any* other source for your information is bound to
lead to errors.
>From RFC 959, The File Transfer Protocol (*'s added for emphasis):
----- START OF EXCERPT -----
A reply is defined to contain the 3-digit code, followed by Space
<SP>, followed by one line of text (where some maximum line length
has been specified), and terminated by the Telnet end-of-line
code. There will be cases however, where the text is longer than
a single line. In these cases the complete text must be bracketed
so the User-process knows when it may stop reading the reply (i.e.
stop processing input on the control connection) and go do other
things. This requires a special format on the first line to
indicate that more than one line is coming, and another on the
last line to designate it as the last. At least one of these must
contain the appropriate reply code to indicate the state of the
transaction. To satisfy all factions, it was decided that both
the first and last line codes should be the same.
* Thus the format for multi-line replies is that the first line
* will begin with the exact required reply code, followed
* immediately by a Hyphen, "-" (also known as Minus), followed by
* text. The last line will begin with the same code, followed
* immediately by Space <SP>, optionally some text, and the Telnet
* end-of-line code.
For example:
123-First line
Second line
234 A line beginning with numbers
123 The last line
The user-process then simply needs to search for the second
occurrence of the same reply code, followed by <SP> (Space), at
the beginning of a line, and ignore all intermediary lines. If
an intermediary line begins with a 3-digit number, the Server
must pad the front to avoid confusion.
This scheme allows standard system routines to be used for
reply information (such as for the STAT reply), with
"artificial" first and last lines tacked on. In rare cases
where these routines are able to generate three digits and a
Space at the beginning of any line, the beginning of each
text line should be offset by some neutral text, like Space.
This scheme assumes that multi-line replies may not be nested.
----- END OF EXCERPT -----
In Short, it's the *HYPHEN* That's important, not the actual return code. In
a multi-line reply, the *first* line should have a three-digit code, a
hypen, and text. The other lines should all *not* begin with numbers. The
final line should have the *same* three-digit number, and a SPACE character.
Any FTP server that does not do this for multi-line replies is broken. Any
FTP client that does not look for this type of multi-line reply is broken.
Oh, and a comment on 220 v.s. 230, again using information from RFC 959:
2yz is a "positive completion reply".
x2z is supposed to be for replies referring to control/data connections.
x3z is supposed to be for Authentication and accounting.
So, if the multi-line banner is *before* you login, it should use code 220
(the connection was accepted). If the multi-line banner is *after* you
login, then it should use code 230 (the login was accepted).
Diatribe complete,
--
C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "If awk is the Swiss Army knife of UNIX,
Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON | then perl is the Swiss Army Chainsaw!"
chk@alias.com |
chk@utcc.utoronto.ca | -Author unknown
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 17:41:26 CET
From: dk5dc@vnet.IBM.COM
Subject: NOS FTP breask 3b2
To: tcp-group@ucsd.Edu
>> The 3B2 networking code is broke, broke, broke. Get yourself a recent
>Oh really? Then why did it work for all these years until jnos
>with the 220- login ftp motd came around? All the sites with
>ftp I ever used had the ftp motd after the password in the
Hmmmm, once again, I might be responsible for that.
About a year ago, I started playing with this 220- motd stuff,
which later found its way via WNOS to JNOS...
The way I did it:
- Observed some of those fancy anonymous ftp-sites which ALWAYS
ALWAYS sen you a couple of those 220- lines upon login.
- Thought it would be a good idea to give the users on the
local (Packet) node some advice.
- Took the ftp rfc.... read the complete rfc carefully
did not find anything against my task to implement it.
- wrote the three++ lines of code.
- Tested the function with:
KA9Q
GRINOS
WNOS
WINWVTNET
AIX V3.1.5 .... 3.2.4
SCO (don't remember the release)
DOSIP as sold by IBM (Client only)
PC/TCP (Client only)
and LINUX |||
Every implementation except for LINUX(|) accepted the change.
LINUX broke almost the same way as descibed over here in the forum.
Then I traced the connection establishment and surprise:
LINUX (whose implementation might base on the bsd code)
sends a SYST command BETWEEN the User and the PASS exchange.
THIS causes the NOS ftp-state machine to go crazy.., but because
I never saw this behaviour (SYST request during Authentication)
on any other system I question myself: Is it a bug of those
Peter Glasmacher DK5DC/AA6HM
+----------------------------------------------+
| AX25Net : DK5DC@DB0LJ.GER.EU (SMTP forward) |
| amprNet : dk5dc@dk5dc.ampr.org [44.130.17.60]|
| Internet: dk5dc@vnet.ibm.com |
| Bitnet : dk5dc@vnet |
| Vnet : D1PGLA AT DUESVM1 |
+----------------------------------------------+
NOS implementations or is it a feature of LINUX (maybe bsd)
to send a SYST request at the wrong time.
Peter Glasmacher DK5DC/AA6HM
+----------------------------------------------+
| AX25Net : DK5DC@DB0LJ.GER.EU (SMTP forward) |
| amprNet : dk5dc@dk5dc.ampr.org [44.130.17.60]|
| Internet: dk5dc@vnet.ibm.com |
| Bitnet : dk5dc@vnet |
| Vnet : D1PGLA AT DUESVM1 |
+----------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 10:03:09 CET
From: dk5dc@vnet.IBM.COM
Subject: re NOS ftp broke
To: tcp-group@ucsd.Edu
OOPS,
In my message yesterday, I stated the help text would issue
220- in front of the FTP-motd. Back home, I examined the code..
I am using 230- textline
230- textline etc.
Which doesn't change the behaviour of LINUX anyway...
Peter Glasmacher DK5DC/AA6HM
+----------------------------------------------+
| AX25Net : DK5DC@DB0LJ.GER.EU (SMTP forward) |
| amprNet : dk5dc@dk5dc.ampr.org [44.130.17.60]|
| Internet: dk5dc@vnet.ibm.com |
| Bitnet : dk5dc@vnet |
| Vnet : D1PGLA AT DUESVM1 |
+----------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 06:45:15 GMT
From: kf5mg@kf5mg.ampr.org
Subject: WinQVT/Net ( was Campus Net )
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
I downloaded WinQVT/Net and it looks promising. I'm looking for something
'slick' to use to intoroduce a ax.25 user to the world of TCP/IP. Is there
any way... short of using 2 ethernet cards to have WinQVT/Net running under
Windows to talk to a NOS, IP-Router running in a Window's DOS Box on the
same machine. Is there a 'Vitrual' Packet driver that will emulate a card
and allow 2 apps to communicate using the packet driver Interface. Doesn't
BPQ have something like that that lets NOS talk to a BPQ switch via a
Packet Driver interface? Any info would be appreciated.
73's de Jack - kf5mg ( running JNOS in a 735K - OS/2 2.1 Dos Box! )
Internet - kf5mg@kf5mg.ampr.org - 44.28.0.14
AX25net - kf5mg@kf5mg.#dfw.tx.usa.noam - home (817) 488-4386
Worknet - kf5mg@vnet.ibm.com - work (817) 962-4409
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I am Homer of Borg.... Prepare to be assim.... oooo Donuts." |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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End of TCP-Group Digest V93 #292
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