Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 04:30:05 PDT
From: Advanced Amateur Radio Networking Group <tcp-group@ucsd.edu>
Errors-To: TCP-Group-Errors@UCSD.Edu
Reply-To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: TCP-Group Digest V93 #193
To: tcp-group-digest
TCP-Group Digest Thu, 29 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 193
Today's Topics:
9600 Baud Modifications.
9600 hardware problems (2 msgs)
help fine IC 8752 (2 msgs)
Ping-Pong-convers Package 2.25 available
PK-88 & G3RUH Problem
TC/PIP node coordinators in Mass & Quebec ??
where is Fred (k1io)
Send Replies or notes for publication to: <TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu>.
Subscription requests to <TCP-Group-REQUEST@UCSD.Edu>.
Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu.
Archives of past issues of the TCP-Group Digest are available
(by FTP only) from UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives".
We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text
herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official
policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 01:18:09 -0600
From: ve6eei@ve6eei.ampr.ab.ca (Evan E. Idler, Edmonton, AB [192.75.200.5])
Subject: 9600 Baud Modifications.
To: tcp-group@UCSD.EDU
I have noticed some interest in modifing rigs for 9600 baud. I have a file
I receiver about a year ago wrote by Mike Curtis called the
9600 Baud Packet Handbook. It gives the modifications for a variety of radios
for use at 9600 baud. If people would like, I can mail a copy to the list
or I can send it to individuals if they send me a request. If you wish me to
mail you a copy, send me a message at "request@ve6eei.ampr.ab.ca" with the
subject "request 9600 baud manual", and I will mail you a copy.
73
Evan
=========================================================================
Evan E. Idler | Wives are like fishermen - They brag
ve6eei@ve6eei.ampr.ab.ca | about the ones that got away & complain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | about the one they caught!
Amateur Packet Radio Station VE6EEI [192.75.200.5]
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:43:24 PDT
From: Glenn Elmore <glenne@hpsadl3.sr.hp.com>
Subject: 9600 hardware problems
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
Steve, N5OWK writes:
> Swinging to the hardware side for a moment...
perish the thought! (:>)
> poorly it performs. I modified an ICOM 228A both to keep the
> receiver on all the time (it shuts it off during transmit as
> designed) and the normal VCO and Discriminator taps. After
> discussing it, I'm pretty much convinced that the final IF
> filter is the culprit. I'm using a PacComm TNC which has a
> 5 kHz cut-off on its input filter.
I've now looked at several voice nbfm radios WRT running 9600 and I
have also found consistently inadequate IF filters. The problem has
shown up both in first IFs, crystal filters, as well as the second IF's
ceramic filters.
I recently acquired a Kenwood TM431 (from someone who had unsuccessfully
tried to convert it for 9600 bps operation) and did some investigating.
I looked at the filter response with a network analyzer which displays
both magnitude, phase and group delay directly. I discovered that there
were severe peaks near the edge of the 1st IF crystal filters which were
due to incorrect matching. On the radio I have, I found that a zero ohm
resistor was indicated on the schematic and had been loaded. It appears
that someone made a production change. By changing this value and changing
the value of a capacitor which sets coupling between the filter sections
and verifying that the output termination was approriate I was able to
greatly improve the group delay flatness.
The second IF (455) already has it's original filter replaced with a
wider one so I can't comment on what "stock" radios might do. In any
case, the result is a receiver much better adapted to 9600 digital
operation.
On the transmit side (PLL) the varactor is modulated directly.
Looking at the loop response, it is obvious that there is not a great
deal of phase margin as indicated by considerable overshoot/peaking in
the respone. Loop bandwidth isn't terribly high but this distortion
(from the point of view of digital TxD) is enough to run the BER into
the noticable range. On the bench, with performance not limited by
available C/N, I see an error once every second or two. At 9600 bps
this indicates a BER in the area of 10e-4.
Other radios I've examined, including a crystal controlled HT ( a
Clairmont,which looks a lot like a Wilson) and a Motorola Micor, both had
group delay problems due to the first crystal filter(s). 9600 bps
modification information that I've seen for the Micor suggests removing
half of the (identical) crystal filters. Even with fairly well matched
filters this leaves one with a pretty narrow IF and I'm pretty sure
increased BER. I haven't measured the whole thing running with data yet
so I can't report more, however, I'm pretty sure that this is not
an optimum modification.
The HT had about 19 KHz (3 dB) of first filter bandwidth but presented
problems on the transmit side even after I managed to get the receiver
to do a pretty good job on passing data (it had been limited mainly by
the 455 KHz ceramic filter).
For fun (:>), I tried to use the existing phase modulator instead of
rebuilding the oscillator circuit for FM. I spent a lot more time on it
than I intended but finally managed to get performance which is limited
by the fundamental capability of the phase modulator. In general, the
greater the available linear phase range (the higher the available
deviation at low frequencies) the better. With the TAPR data scambler
and resulting spectrum to very low in frequency (lines every 9600/2^16
for a 16 bit PN sequence) there is going to be some "sag" and resulting
eye closure with any phase modulator. However, with typical radios
having +-10 KHz available down to below 300 Hz usable performance is
possible.
The HT isn't as good as the Kenwood on transmit, probably 2 or so bit
errors per second, but it does work after a fashion. On a noisey
channel things are going to be worse.
> My theory is that 4800 Hz is the highest modulating frequency,
> so the modulation index at 3 kHz deviation would be .625. Using
> a Bessel chart shows +/- 3 sidebands for (6 x 4800) 28.8 kHz
> Bandwidth. I assume the FIR filter on transmit greatly
> attenuates the third sideband so we probably only need (4 x
> 4800) or 19.2 kHz.
Carson's rule (occupied bw=2 X (deviation + rate)) would lead one to
expect a little over 15 KHz. If you have high C/N then some eye closure
due to modulator/demodulator and filtering imperfections can be
tolerated. One can probably lop off all components below some value
bigger than Carson indicates and still use the thing. The problem is
that there are several sources of error and it doesn't take long to
get the BER worse than 10e-4 or so. By the time it gets to 10e-3 there
are better than even odds of taking a hit on a 256 byte long packet and
things get pretty bad.
> The trouble is my ICOM (and most other rigs) has a 455 kHz filter
> marked with an 'E'. PacComm says an 'E' is 15 kHz and a 'D' is
> 20 kHz. I'm not sure what the 10.7 MHz IF has in it. What's the
> general consensus on this? Do those running 9600 sucessfully change
> these out, or is my math all wrong?
> ---
I've just recently poked my nose into this so I don't have much
perspective but from what I've seen I'd guess that *many* people are
having trouble getting good performance from converted voice radios
and that even those using them may be likely to see considerable bit
error rate.
Maybe some of those here on tcp-group with running systems can comment
on how often they see an edge on the BER test point of the modem with
TxD held steady for a sampling of radios. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic.
I think we need both a source of wider 455 KHz filters and xtal
filters. It seems like there out to be a market for a "digital IF
adapter" which uses a couple of conversions, a MC3356 or similar and
acceptable filters. By first converting from a 10-50 MHz IF of the
given radio (one radio-specific crystal) I'd think that reasonable
selectivity and strong signal performance could be maintained at the
same time that IF characteristics tailored for 9600 bps operation could
be had. Seems like it wouldn't have to cost more than $50.
On the transmit side, I suspect that we can make do with PLL radios,
though perhaps a little loop compensation adjustment might help things
on a radio by radio basis.
Is there a forum anywhere for discussing this?
Glenn Elmore n6gn
N6GN @ K3MC
amateur IP: glenn@SantaRosa.ampr.org
Internet: glenne@sr.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 16:57:07 -0400
From: goldstein@carafe.tay2.dec.com (k1io, FN42jk)
Subject: 9600 hardware problems
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
All this talk about receiver bandwidths brings to mind some modulation
theory that is going around ATM Forum.
In practice, and Shannon bears this out, you can trade off SNR and Bw.
It turns out to be pretty easy... on the transmit side at least!
At last months' ATMF meeting, IBM proposed sending 51 Mbps down UTP-3
(unshielded twisted pair, Ethernet grade) wiring by using a form of
modulation called Binary Partial Response Class IV. Basically, you
take the scrambled bit stream, represent it as NRZI (1 or 0, on or off),
and feed it into a low-pass filter at 1/2 the modulation rate. So for
9600 bps you just hard limit it at 4800 Hz bandwidth.
For radio, just apply this to FM. You known and I know that there
are Bessell products way up there, but you just don't transmit anything
outside of the desired bandwidth.
This works because the receiver is a bit more complex. The received
waveform isn't NRZI (on wire) or FM (on radio). The received waveform,
however, is different for different inputs. So a DSP can figure out
what the original signal was.
You can also use 4-level coding (QPRIV) or more, noting that you need
a better SNR but it's still usable.
BTW, IBM brought this in to counter AT&T's proposal to use Carrierless
AM/PM-16, a variant on the familiar QAM-16 used in 9600 bps phone/fax
modems and on some digital microwave radios.
The IBM proposal uses a 6-bit DAC with adaptive equalization, btw.
fred k1io
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 20:58:23 CET
From: BARRY TITMARSH <BTITMARS%ESOC.BITNET@vm.gmd.de>
Subject: help fine IC 8752
To: TCP-GROUP <TCP-GROUP@ucsd.edu>
Hi all i need to locale the source of supply of
micro controler chip type 8752 is a 16 bit cpu + eprom
I need it urgent for a TNC project.
any one know if Radio Shack has them
Thanks.. Barry..
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 14:58:23 PDT
From: PMcAfee.El_Segundo@xerox.com
Subject: help fine IC 8752
To: BTITMARS%ESOC.BITNET@vm.gmd.de
An 8752 is an 8 bit microcomputer with 8k bytes of internal EPROM and 256 bytes
of internal RAM. There is also an additional counter/ timer on the 8x52. The
8751 is an 8 bit microcomputer with 4k internal EPROM and 128 bytes of internal
RAM. Other than this the parts are the same. The 8052 and 8051 are ROM
versions. The 8031 and 8032 are ROMless versions, with the external ROM pin EA/
tied low any of the part will use the external ROM/EPROM.
Dont think you will find the part at RadioShack, You will need to try a real
parts house.
Pete McAfee
kd6hr.el_segundo@xerox.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 04:57:43 +0100 (MET DST)
From: dc6iq@insi4.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de (Fred Baumgarten)
Subject: Ping-Pong-convers Package 2.25 available
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu (TCP-Group Digest)
Hi !
Tonight i uploaded a new _heavy_ improved version of the ping-pong convers to
insu1.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de ~/pub/hamradio/convers/convers-930729.tar.gz.
New features are:
- hidden, secret, moderated and private channels
- mutiple channel access using one stream
- Configure shellscript
- help on most commands implemented (takers to make better
explanations ?)
- stub for buildsaddr.o / libutil.a to make it compile
for kernel TCP/IP only (untested - but should work :-))
- First attempt to conversd specification file, subject to
change - I'd like to hear from you for fixes, ideas and
left out commands.
Enjoy the stuff - I'll collect answers and suggestions. 73's Fred, dc6iq
--
Fred Baumgarten Email: dc6iq@insu1.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de
Kandelstrasse 27 Packet: dc6iq@db0sao.ampr.org
D-76297 Stutensee-Buechig IP: [44.130.29.10] (AmPR-Net)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 09:34:10 PDT
From: Mike_Beezley.houstoncssc@xerox.com
Subject: PK-88 & G3RUH Problem
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
>> I use a PK-88 (firmware 23.AUG.91) with G3RUH for 9600 baud mode.
I can receive packets long 1024 bytes, <<
Hhmm, I have a PK-88 the firmware is Jun-90. I mailed in my little warantee
card and have yet to see any info about any new firmware. I was under the
impression that AEA would notify you in the event of an upgrade. Anybody else
see this capability in new firmware (9600 baud and 1024 packets)?
73 de N5PWP
__mike
MBeez.HoustonCSSC@Xerox.COM
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:13:44 EDT
From: taalebi@ai.mit.edu (Ali Taalebi)
Subject: TC/PIP node coordinators in Mass & Quebec ??
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
Hi.
I would like to get in touch with the
TCP/IP node coordinators
for
Mass. and Quebec.
Your help will be very much appreciated.
--73's de N1HPP
__ _ M. Ali Taalebinezhaad
/ ) // MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
/- -/ // o 545 Technologry Square, NE43-753
/ /_</_<_ Cambridge, MA 02139-3539, USA
Phone: (617) 253-8005
Fax: (617) 258-8682
Email: taalebi@ai.mit.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:00:37 GMT
From: kz1f@kz1fhdn.legent.com (Walt Corey [44.104.0.23])
Subject: where is Fred (k1io)
To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu
Sry for the inappropriate use of this list but...
Fred, K1lo, give me a usable return route to you please.
Walt
________________________________________________________
PMNOS 1.1e to be released soon, stay tuned.
________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 16:57:59 GMT
From: root@uk.ac.swan.sugalaxy
Several people asked for this ages ago. Unfortunately I've
been too busy to sort it (or the other wampes toys) out.
This is a pop3 client that will work directly to tcp/ip
or work with WAMPES netcmd socket. Basically all it does
is grab all your POP3 mail and store it in a file.
begin 600 pop3.tar.z
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M@V!FVDS"L>>$,0V1=JR9$(DX=1,(IG+\!$F;D8]D&><`Q]T*OY;`7"`%$2?<
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,7_SY/_C:C`(`4```
`
end
------------------------------
End of TCP-Group Digest V93 #193
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